Episode 4: Hart Lambur, CEO of UMA

Trade Anything, Anywhere, With Any Amount of Capital

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This time I present you Hart Lambur, the CEO and founder of Universal Market Access, also known as UMA. UMA recently took over crypto media with the announcement of the USStocks token, which allows anyone with access to the internet to participate in the US stock market. The fact that UMA breaks literally all financial borders made it absolutely necessary for me to have them on the podcast. While the project is still in its early days, its potential is hard to understate. UMA is building the infrastructure that will allow even people in the lowest income bracket to build a diverse investment portfolio or to get exposure to assets that are today accessible only to large institutional investors.

This conversation was super interesting for me. Hart is an extremely intelligent person on a mission to break financial borders. He helped me learn what financial derivatives are, how you can benefit from the price increase of an asset, without actually owning that asset, and how transparent financial derivatives built on UMA will positively affect the financial world. I hope you enjoy this talk, just like I did.

UMA and Hart’s Contact:

Evangelists who converted Hart into crypto:

Hart recommends reading and following:

Full Episode Transcript

(00:02) George Manolov:

This is the Borderless Crypto Podcast.

Hello everyone. I’m your host George Manolov, and in this series, I bring you exceptional investors, entrepreneurs, hustlers, and thought leaders from the cryptocurrency space.

This time, I present you, Hart Lambur, the CEO and founder of Universal Market Access, also known as UMA. UMA recently took over crypto media with the announcement of the USStocks Token, which allows anyone with access to the Internet to participate in the US Stock Market. The fact that UMA breaks literally all financial borders made it absolutely necessary for me to have them on the podcast. While the project is still in its early days, its potential is hard to understate. UMA is building the infrastructure that will allow even the people in the lowest income bracket to build a diverse investment portfolio or to get exposure to assets that are today accessible only to large institutional investors.

This conversation was super interesting for me. Hart is an extremely intelligent person who’s on a mission to break financial borders. He helped me learn what financial derivatives are, how you can benefit from the price increase of an asset without actually owning that asset and how transparent financial derivative built on UMA will positively affect the financial world. I hope you enjoyed this talk, just like I did.

Please note that anything that I or my guests say in these talks is for informational purposes only and should not be treated as investment advice. And although during daylight, I’m part of the team behind the crypto lending platform Nexo. At night when I do these talks, I share only my personal thoughts, which in no way represent Nexo’s opinions.

Now, it’s time to get the podcast started in three, two, one.

(02:26) George Manolov:

Hart, I’m extremely excited to have you here. Before we jump in deeper into the UMA project, can you tell us what you do and how this is groundbreaking for the global financial ecosystem, can you just introduce yourself and tell us a little about where you come from? How did you get to the crypto space?

(02:43) Hart Lambur:

Sure, George. Thank you so much for having me. For background; I studied computer science in my undergraduate education, I ended up working in finance as an interest rate product trader at Goldman Sachs in New York for eight years through the financial crisis, so that me a lot for my CS background. Then, I started a FinTech business called Openfolio, that lasted four years, and it was acquired about a year and a half ago. And that, let me go full head on into crypto, about a year and a half ago with this project.

(03:13) George Manolov:

When did you discover crypto? Was it after you exited your prior company?

(03:18) Hart Lambur:

I was able to discover crypto in 2013 when I was just leaving Goldman. I was fortunate enough to work and be friend with one of the founders of Coinbase, who was also at Goldman at the time. So, that was pretty lucky. But crypto or blockchains to me has always been super fascinating to me; being this perfect combination of a lot of my interests in economics, finance and computer science.

I really look at it as a way of programming incentive structures, and I think that’s super cool, super interesting and really powerful. I look at this as being one of the first ways that we can actually program incentive structures, and use code and economics to incentivize how people behave and respond.

(04:01) George Manolov:

Okay. So, the reason I invited you to talk on the podcast, and this is why I got super interested, obviously was the headline that went through the whole crypto space, just a few weeks ago, that you basically have empowered anyone anywhere to access the S&P 50 index; by allowing them to buy a token, which represents that index. So, before you tell us more about how this works, can you explain how did you come up with the UMA project? And what was the reason for UMA?

(05:16) Hart Lambur:

Absolutely. Financial derivatives are this really powerful concept in finance, and how we came up with it; I was going through the history of financial innovations and traditional finance that have led to the development of this deep and sophisticated financial infrastructure that we have, and thinking what the crypto version of these things could or would look like. In this process, I, very quickly, came across financial derivatives, specifically synthetic over the counter swaps, which we can go into more detail on what exactly you mean by that, and realized that in crypto, this could take the form of a super powerful protocol; essentially to allow people to transfer risk and access financial risk over the blockchain.

(05:18) George Manolov:

Okay. In that sense, can you then tell us a little more about what UMA actually is?

(05:24) Hart Lambur:

Sure. Why don’t we start with this synthetic over the counter swap, what this thing actually is and what it allows? The example I usually like to go with is that, say you and I want to trade risk on something. I used the word trade risk, but we could bet, hedge or invest. You say want to go long gold.

(05:44) George Manolov:

Going long means: I believe the price of gold will go up.

(05:48) Hart Lambur:

Or I want to go short gold.

(05:49) George Manolov:

Going short means: Hart believes that the price of gold will go down.

(06:11) Hart Lambur:

You could do that by buying gold, and I could borrow gold and sell it short or something like that. But the other way to do this in traditional finance is that we enter into a financial contract, a derivative agreement between the two of us, which is effectively a legal contract, where I say, I’m going to pay you the price change of gold. If gold goes up, I’m going to pay you so much money in a say years time, and if gold goes down, you pay me. This financial derivative is a super flexible tool, because effectively we just bet on the price of gold without either of us having to move gold back and forth. We’ve done it without either of us even needing to own gold.

That agreement is super powerful because we can basically trade anything we want, anything that we can write in this contract, but of course this contract is only useful if we both believe the agreement will be honored. So, how do we secure that? How do we make sure that happens?

In the traditional world, we have two mechanisms to secure this agreement. We have what’s called margining, where you and I both redeem collateral for something of value as the value of that contract changes. And we have legal recourse so you could sue me if I don’t follow the terms of the trade.

(07:08) George Manolov:

How does it work in the traditional financial world? We use some sort of intermediary, I imagine.

(07:14) Hart Lambur:

We use both an intermediary, typically a clearing house or a futures clearing house, and we also operate within a well-known and very expensive legal infrastructure. So, the types of derivatives I’m talking about are really only accessible to institutional financial players, mainly European or American entities. They’re completely inaccessible to us because it would cost too much to litigate or to enforce the legal process on us for these types of derivatives.

So, it’s very much a permission system. This type of trading isn’t accessible to the vast, vast, vast majority of people. This brings us to what we’re doing and how crypto fits in here. We like to imagine a hypothetical world, the reason why you need legal recourse in traditional derivatives is that it takes too long to move money or to remargin a contract. It takes at least a day, even in the big hundred-million-dollar traditional financial derivatives. It takes a day to remargin them and to move money back and forth. So, you need this backup mechanism of legal recourse to secure these agreements. But suppose there was this hypothetical world where you could move money instantaneously and you could value that contract instantaneously and independently. In this hypothetical world of instantaneously moving money, you could theoretically have continuous real-time margining of your contract so that money is always moving instantaneously as the value of your financial derivative changes. This concept is super cool, because this would theoretically mean that you can secure these contracts with margin alone; there’d be no need for legal recourse. You could always just instantaneously remargin your contract and the person on the other side would never be afraid of losing money because he’d always have his margin and his collateral posted into the financial derivative itself.

(09:15) George Manolov:

Okay. And this hypothetical world that you’re describing, isn’t this essentially what crypto is? Because in crypto you can move money fast, way faster than the traditional financial system. Is this what you’re referring to?

(09:29) Hart Lambur:

yes, spot on, but with a couple of caveats. In crypto, you can move money very, very quickly, but you can’t quite move it instantaneously, right?

(09:40) George Manolov:

Right.

(10:20) Hart Lambur:

Nothing is instantaneous. But this gives us a lot of tools, let’s say, George, going back to our example of us betting on gold; you want to go long gold, while I want to go short gold. Let’s say, we can move money on a blockchain within five minutes to finality, just as a number, if you and I both believe that gold will never move more than 10% in five minutes, we can design a financial contract where we each deposit at least 10% of the notional par trade, at every moment in time. In terms of this contract, we lose whatever that margin deposit is, if we don’t remargin and add more money when we’re supposed to. What we’ve now designed, in this simple hypothetical example, is a self-enforcing contract where you and I both have an economic incentive to remargin and make good on our trade. So long as gold doesn’t move more than 10% in five minutes, otherwise we’ll lose that collateral as a default penalty.

(10:40) George Manolov:

Got It. So, basically, you’re using the blockchain to create a globally accessible system where any individual or any company can enter with other individuals and companies into derivative contracts without having to rely on a specific jurisdiction or a specific legal system to be sure that this contract is going to be enforced. Is that correct?

(11:06) Hart Lambur:

Yeah, that’s right. It’s this infrastructure to let people, we like to say, transfer risk. Almost like a protocol to transfer risk that is permissionless, globally accessible and uses crypto as the infrastructure to enable all of this.

(11:25) George Manolov:

That’s super powerful. For me to understand and for our audience to understand; in practice, what is UMA? Is it a website, an app or a protocol? And who and how can enter these derivative agreements? So, basically who can transfer risk? Who can bet on certain stuff? And who can get involved in this system that you are building?

(11:46) Hart Lambur:

Good question. We are a protocol, essentially a platform, to build these financial contracts and it’s meant or intended to be accessible to anyone that can legally access it; for example, these types of agreements are not accessible to the American people for various reasons. But we are just the infrastructure, we are just providing the technology, the smart contracts and the tools to actually create these contracts. Now, for the first use cases, we’ve tried to simplify this a little bit. In this example we talked about this gold contract where you and I are betting on the price of gold, that requires us both to be fairly sophisticated financial counterparties where we’re watching these contracts and we’re remargining as the value of the contract changes. And that’s actually kind of a lot to ask, so what we’ve done in the very first use cases is that, we’ve created a slightly simpler version of the contract where one side of this agreement, the swap contract, fully collateralized their position and puts in a 100% of the margin on their side, and then tokenizes that position to create an ERC-20 token that represents synthetic long ownership in that underlying derivatives. That’s quite a mouthful, but effectively, we’ve used these financial derivative and a smart contract technology to create a mechanism that allows what we’re calling a token sponsor to create tokenized derivatives that are fully collateralized which can then be treated as ERC-20 tokens and represent synthetic ogre in whatever the underlying contract might be.

(13:47) George Manolov:

Or in other words, instead of me entering in some small derivative agreement with some other entity, you have one entity which is building this derivative contract, which is a major derivative that has some sort of value. I guess to start, I should probably ask who is this person? Because it’s not you, you’re just providing the infrastructure. It’s not you who have created the token, and it’s not you who is now allowing people to invest in the S&P by just buying tokens. There’s somebody else, right?

(14:15) Hart Lambur:

Yeah. The protocol is designed to be permissionless and accessible to whomever, in the early days. We don’t want this to just be mayhem, people create tons of things in the world. There’s a Hong Kong based crypto market making firm that has used this technology to create the first product using the UMA smart contract. This first product is called USStocks, it’s a token that tracks the 500 largest stocks by market cap in the US, and this token is currently listed on a decentralized exchange called DDEX.

(14:49) George Manolov:

But does this really work today? Because I guess, there’re two propositions here for UMA and what you’re doing. On the one hand, more sophisticated people can enter into derivative contracts. But on the other hand, anyone anywhere can just go on DDEX or, I guess in the future, other exchanges and buy an ERC-20 token, which represents these 500 stocks. So, does it work in the sense that, for example, I went on DDEX where this token is listed today, and where anyone can buy this token. There were just a few buyers, there were a few sale orders, but it isn’t like there’s real liquidity there and people are buying and selling. So, I imagine what you have launched is more of a showcase at this point.

(16:09) Hart Lambur:

yeah, that’s right. We look at this as a proof of concept. Again, we don’t know what products people want or really who wants to create those products that people want. That’s the big experiment to figure out, and that’s the whole fun thing about Crypto; there’s this whole new world of innovation, making financial products accessible and to making new financial products accessible to lots of new people in different parts of the world or different regions that no one’s ever served or even thought about before. But we’re in this interesting position where we’re just providing this framework to help people create these products. And it’s a big open question to us; what people want to use this for, what they want to build and where market demand will come from.

(16:23) George Manolov:

Okay. As you said it’s a proof of concept, but I also saw that this token which people can buy is tradeable that is going to get, I’m not sure how is the best way to describe it, but it’s going to be redeemable. So, the derivative contract is gonna get closed on May 15th, so this is not really the moment when anyone anywhere can trade it and get access to the S&P 500. So, do you have an idea of when that would actually become possible for a wider audience? Or are you just letting the market play out and cannot really have any say or do anything about it?

(17:08) Hart Lambur:

We’re in the very early days and we’re just pleased with how this first proof of concept has gone and that the underlying platform is working. There’s more than a million dollars in this product that exists, which is pretty cool, and it hasn’t broken, we feel really good about that. We’re going to be heads down just working on improving the different types of contracts that can be created. We’re also working on a pretty innovative decentralized Oracle design that really removes or provides credibility around the price feed being used to value these contracts. And in parallel to that, we are trying to get out there and understand what types of products people want to create and in what types of regions. We’re really just trying to foster an ecosystem to grow around this.

(17:57) George Manolov:

When you say you’re trying to foster an ecosystem, who’s your audience at the end of the day? Is it traders, coders, institutional investors, small individuals or market makers? Do you have a group of people that you’re talking to or want them to learn more about you?

(18:44) Hart Lambur:

It’s a great question. I think that our immediate audience is market makers and maybe exchanges that are looking to create new products to service their users. And I really say that the first step on using our technology is to function as what we’re calling a token sponsor, to create a new derivative token that tracks something. Those people are our first market. In a sense, we’ve got a BTB problem, we’ve got to find these other businesses or other entities that want to create these. Then of course those entities, those token sponsors, want to create products that are demanded from the end consumer, from whoever’s going to buy them. That’s the interesting trajectory we need to follow, which is finding people who have really innovative ideas on products they want to create for a certain type of user, and then helping them create those products and providing the technology to help them create those products, and hopefully they’d able to sell those products to their own users.

(19:20) George Manolov:

I guess the exchanges are the market makers who would make a big difference, the big players in the world, such as Coinbase, Bittrex or some of the big exchanges. Because in DDEX in general, and other decentralized exchanges, for many reasons that we don’t have to discuss at this point, there’s just not a lot of volume. They’re the go to place for crypto traders. So, do you already have interest from the largest established players for the creation of such type of products?

(19:47) Hart Lambur:

We’ve talked with a number of people in the crypto space and they were very interested by what we’re doing. What I think is an interesting idea to think through; if you’re a crypto exchange, at some point do you want to just stay a crypto exchange or do you want to become an exchange that lets new users buy or sell anything they want to buy or sell. I think that at some point in the future, and I’m not sure when, timing will be difficult here, but at some point in the future, I think it makes a lot of sense for crypto exchanges to just become exchanges where you can buy and sell crypto product, but you could also buy and sell gold, oil, the S&P 500 or whatever else.

(20:27) George Manolov:

And this is what you’re enabling with your derivatives contracts. Because at some point, it’s like you are enabling people to trade stuff without actually owning them.

(20:39) Hart Lambur:

That’s right.

(20:40) George Manolov:

So, would you say that derivatives are good tools which you can use to trade even fiat? Does it make sense to enable people to trade the US dollar and the Euro using your tool? So, in a sense provide a product that is an alternative or a competitor of the stable coins out there, or not really?

(21:01) Hart Lambur:

I wouldn’t say we’re competing with the stable coins for sure. The Maker team, for example, DAI is the margin currency for the first product that was created using our technology, the USStocks product. I think that the stable coins have a very important role. But I think that there’s a deeper question to what you’re getting at, which is just how do you trade or own risk, or what I’m abstractly calling risk. You can go and own risk by actually having a certificate that says you own something. Gold’s a great example, you can own gold by physically having gold, under your bed for instance. Or you can own Apple stock by having a brokerage account that is a custodian of shares that say you own apple stock, and they entitle you to use rights and privileges. It’s a very physical way of owning risk.

There’s an alternative world, where you don’t physically own those things. Instead, you enter into contracts that say, I’ll pay you the price return of whatever these assets are. So, you enter into a contract that you believe and you believe it because of the crypto economic design of this contract. You enter a contract that says you own so much gold or you’re going to get paid the price return of so much gold, or you’re going to get paid the price return of so much S&P 500 or whatever else. And so, there is this alternative world where you can use contracts to, quote unquote, invest in everything. It’s a pretty interesting world to think through because that world is very globally accessible. As long as you can write that contract with anyone, that means that anyone can actually access and invest in anything, and I think that’s pretty cool.

(22:56) George Manolov:

That definitely sounds absolutely amazing. Now on the other hand, I’m curious to find your thoughts about that, if this also creates some dangers. Because of what you’re essentially doing with derivatives, when you’re entering into such contracts where you are betting on the price move of any assets, you are essentially expanding the financial ecosystem in a way, which I would imagine could create some risks. Warren Buffet famously said that financial derivatives are weapons of mass destruction. In that sense, the fact that you are gonna enable this point, something that you stress a lot in your white paper is that so far, the creation of financial derivatives and trading of financial derivatives has been largely limited to institutions. But your average individual couldn’t create nor trade such derivatives, the fact that with the UMA protocol, you’re hopefully gonna enable anyone anywhere to do this. I imagine at some point; you could just expand the financial world in a huge scale. So, do you think that would increase the rate of systemic risks in general, such as huge collapses or potential financial struggles?

(24:03) Hart Lambur:

It’s a great question. I think I’d separate the systemic risk question from the other question of what happens if a lot of people have access to financial markets that didn’t previously have access to financial markets. So, the systemic risk question, and a lot of similar quotes to Warren Buffet’s, is because the classic design of over the counter swaps and derivatives was totally opaque and nobody knew what their risk was. And it created this cascading terrific collapse of financial risk because all these contracts were actually totally opaque and nobody could figure out what their risk was. I’d actually argue that the type of approach we’re promoting and the type of approach crypto in general promotes really dampens the systemic risk, because people can really see what’s going on. It’s on the blockchain; you can read it and know what your risk is. And I think that’s something that’s very good from that perspective.

But your second question around making markets way more accessible to a lot more people. I will say for sure that this could be very scary. Financial education or really the lack of financial education is a big problem. Even in the US, arguably the most developed tangible marketplace out there, there’s still so much miseducation or misunderstanding about how to use financial products correctly, and I think that’s a problem that we globally need to attack and tackle. We can’t just go head in the sand; I don’t think the right approach is to limit access to the products people have. I think the right approach is to focus more on the education and understanding of how these products should get used and to really incentivize the creation of responsible and reasonable financial products that help people actually achieve their financial goals.

(25:46) George Manolov:

On this point, I guess you’re saying that whatever you say or do, you cannot really prevent people from burning themselves the moment you give them access to a certain type of instrument, and if it’s easy looks attractive, they’re going to just try it out. They may get burned, for example a lot of people got burnt with the ICO’s and the bull market, which all of a sudden basically gave access to anyone globally who is a little more curious to just invest and trade stuff, which beforehand probably he could never do. Probably people got burned, but I guess once we get burned, it becomes the easiest way to actually learn. Right?

(26:22) Hart Lambur:

Yeah, I agree with that.

(26:24) George Manolov:

I tend to agree with you that giving universal access is great. And even if people do some mistakes, that’s basically the best way they can learn. Another question, which I’ve been thinking a lot as I read about UMA and as we’re talking here, explaining how UMA is building the infrastructure for these contracts to be built and other people are going to actually build these contracts and these investment tools. So, what is your financial model at the end of the day? I know that you have raised capital from some leading investors in the US, but is your plan to continue raising or how would you monetize a protocol in general, like Ethereum which has tokens, but do you have tokens or what is your approach there to just building a sustainable project?

(27:15) Hart Lambur:

It’s a great question. what these financial derivatives require at the end of the day, is a price feed. They can be used to value them and value what the payouts between the counterparties should be. Our revenue model is basically centered around that price fee. And in Crypto, people generally call this the Oracle Problem; how do you get off chain data onto a blockchain? And we intend on monetizing by creating a provably verifiable oracle system that can resolve disputes around any settlement of any of these contracts. And that will have a token in our design. We have this interesting design where we believe that we needed a token to credibly build this decentralized data verification mechanism. And that is how we will monetize the project.

(28:04) George Manolov:

Wait, so if I enter in a contract with somebody else and then we have disputes, will I have to pay to use your oracle system? I didn’t quite get it.

(28:15) Hart Lambur:

Yeah. It’s not all designed yet. We’ll be publishing a second white paper outlining the high-level understanding of how this works in the near future, but that’s effectively right, what you outlined, where we will charge a small fee to access, not the system, anyone can access the system, but to access this dispute resolution mechanism. If you were to dispute settlement prices, counterparties would basically be paying a higher fee, and this fee varies according to the properties of the system, but it’s a very small fee to have access to this credible data verification mechanism that will settle any disputes with the final settlement of a contract should be.

(28:53) George Manolov:

Got It. Okay, cool. All right, Hart, with that in mind, I want to enter to a few final questions that are not necessarily directly tied to the project, but I’d be curious to learn a little more about. You mentioned that you got very early in the crypto industry, what made you enter the industry? Was there a particular person that got you in? You mentioned you had a friend in Coinbase, was it him who got you in. Or did you read something online? What was this moment when you realized that crypto is going to be huge?

(29:25) Hart Lambur:

Yeah, it was actually Fred Ehrsam, one of the cofounders of Coinbase, who I knew from my time at Goldman and he was the guy that I was friends with before he started Coinbase. And before he joined Brian at Coinbase, I actually had a lot of fun in the very early days of Coinbase watching them grow like wildfire. So, sort of a different use case where I actually saw my friend’s business kicking off and it opened my eyes to the fact that this Bitcoin thing was really a thing. It just made a lot of sense to me, as the computer science financing person, this type of technology or product made a ton of sense to me. In hindsight, it’s funny because I already left Goldman and started my own business, it was this FinTech business, and I think that if I hadn’t started that business, which locked me into doing that for four plus years, I probably would’ve started that crypto business a lot earlier. But it all worked out.

(30:28) George Manolov:

I’m also curious if you’re open to sharing some general thoughts on this. As you said, you come from a computer science and financial backgrounds, so how does a person like you see crypto investments when it looks to managing your personal finances? I’m sure you have a particular strategy that you’re following when it comes to crypto. So, would you be open to sharing your approach or mantra when it comes to crypto assets.

(31:01) Hart Lambur:

I’m very open to sharing, yet I think it’s remarkably unsophisticated. I really am just a hodler, nothing more. It’s funny because in my job at Goldman I was a trader, that was my job, I traded for institutional clients all day, every day. But trading is not a good way to manage your personal money, in my opinion. It’s best just to have a diversified portfolio of assets or risks that you believe in and to rebalance that portfolio occasionally, but really to close your eyes and not think about it. So, I trade crypto very rarely. I just own some and hodl it, and I look at it as an investment allocation alongside the rest of my investment portfolio. It’s just another asset class that I’m invested in for the long run.

(31:48) George Manolov:

If you feel comfortable sharing what size of your portfolio that crypto is a constituent of, because there’re all kinds of cases where people own a lot or dedicate a lot of their portfolio or a small chunk of theirs. So, how do you look at that and do you maintain this steak or do you increase it over time?

(32:05) Hart Lambur:

It’s changed a little bit. Generally speaking, my percent allocation changes as crypto prices change. It’s a volatile asset class, but I think right now I probably have about 25% of my portfolio in crypto, and given their volatility, that seems like a lot. If I’m going to provide a general crypto advice, it really depends upon your risk tolerance, your age and your investment goals. I think that any financial advisor would tell you that you should really only have invested in crypto, what you’re pretty comfortable losing. It really is a speculative investment. Just to be safe, if you’re trying to buy a house in the next two years, putting that money in crypto is probably not a very good idea. But if you are young, have some risk appetite and want to hold this thing for the next 10 or 15 years, I think having a real allocation of this asset class in your portfolio makes a lot of sense.

(33:07) George Manolov:

Okay. A couple of final questions; I’m sure you follow a lot of people in crypto, but is there someone in particular that you’d recommend for our audience to follow just because he or she is insightful and can help us navigate the crypto waters better?

(33:22) Hart Lambur:

That is a very good question. I subscribe to the Token Economy newsletter that Stephano and Yannick put out. I think it is an excellent overview of what’s going on in crypto. Chris Burniske, who’s one of our lead investors at Placeholder, wrote a book called Cryptoassets. I think his understanding of the crypto market and just his general thoughts and views are really impressive and worth hearing. I’d also say Fred Wilson’s blog posts, I don’t think he’s written one in a while, but I think his blog posts are very insightful, regarding the direction of where crypto is going.

(33:57) George Manolov:

Awesome. I can definitely confirm for all you were saying, but specifically Token Economy has been also an amazing source of high-quality crunch of the most important stuff happening in crypto that I’ve been following, I can also recommend it as well. Awesome, Harts!

With that in mind, where can people find you? Where can people find more about UMA and if there’s anything else that you want to share, now’s the time.

(34:20) Hart Lambur:

Well, thanks George. Thanks so much. You can follow me on Twitter, my Twitter handle is “@hal2001”, and for more on UMA, the Twitter handle there is “@UMAprotocol” and our website is UMAproject.org

(34:33) George Manolov:

Awesome. Okay, great. Thanks again for being here. It’s an extremely interesting project. I think you have a lot to do for, not just the crypto, but the overall finance space globally, so I keep fingers crossed that you reach your goals.

(34:49) Hart Lambur:

George, thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.

(34:52) George Manolov:

A couple of things before you take off, first, if you enjoyed this episode, be generous and share it with your best friends. They deserve it, they will appreciate it and they will be grateful to you. Second, I named this podcast Borderless Crypto, because I have been fascinated by the speed with which crypto has been breaking financial borders. Just like the Internet empowered us to communicate and share information with anyone anywhere. 24/7/365. Crypto is empowering people of any country to transact freely, to invest in all sorts of assets and to access capital to grow their economic status. I’m super pumped to be part of this financial transformation. That is why I’m doing this podcast, to spread awareness about crypto and to accelerate the removal of economic borders.

If like me, you want to see a borderless financial world, help me spread the word about crypto even faster by spending one minute to rate this podcast, write a review and subscribe. So, that more people learn about crypto and in this way together with you, we accelerate crypto adoption.

Finally, if you have any suggestions, feedback, or anything you want to tell me, send me a message on my Twitter handle “@borderlessBTC”, thanks for tuning in and I’ll see you again soon.

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